tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post2389247910699975024..comments2023-11-01T02:19:14.796-05:00Comments on Elements Of Power: F-35 Transonic Acceleration vs. an F-16 Block 60 'Hot Rod'SMSgt Machttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-35609364115584143862015-04-29T23:05:17.556-05:002015-04-29T23:05:17.556-05:00Post updated, to elaborate on what is meant by &qu...Post updated, to elaborate on what is meant by "in the end it really doesn't matter either way". Bottom line, we don't have all the facts in hand and what we don't know can be bigger than what we do know. SMSgt Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-53818031488398907552015-04-21T22:16:12.458-05:002015-04-21T22:16:12.458-05:00OK, thanks. But I think a difference in those tim...OK, thanks. But I think a difference in those times without that dramatic adjustment is significant. So unless we say transonic accelleration doesn't matter at all, then I think that it would certainly....well, matter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-11790736998956991092015-04-21T21:36:18.337-05:002015-04-21T21:36:18.337-05:00HI Tim,
Y'know, in the end it really doesn'...HI Tim,<br />Y'know, in the end it really doesn't matter either way. Too complex to explain why in a thread. I'll try to post an update this weekend. Working too long hours during the week to compose before then.SMSgt Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-74900070114550456382015-04-21T16:51:06.224-05:002015-04-21T16:51:06.224-05:00Correction, the 30 degree bank angle is for 4 JDAM...Correction, the 30 degree bank angle is for 4 JDAMs. Combat radius seems to be for 2 JDAMs. And air-to-air performance, specifically maneuverability, seem to be for internal carry of JDAMs expended, which world leave 2 AMRAAMs in the bay's? Anyway, look forward to your response on how you concluded the mission profile load-out for the transonic accelleration KPP.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-25322197655302766842015-04-21T15:00:55.047-05:002015-04-21T15:00:55.047-05:00SMSgt Mac,
Thank you. I checked the paper though ...SMSgt Mac,<br /><br />Thank you. I checked the paper though and different KPP requirements have different configurations. The KPP's related to maneuverability assume all air-to-ground munitions are expended and 60% remaining fuel. There is a requirement for internal carry of 2x 2K JDAMs and 2x AMRAAMs for a bank angle of 30 degrees. And it looks like the combat radius requirements are along that same mission profile. But if I had to guess I would think transonic accelleration would be more along the lines of the mission profiles for air-to-air maneuverability than combat radius or some minimum bank threshold. Unless there is somewhere else in that document or elsewhere that makes that clear. Is there?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-39039471698674443292015-04-21T14:59:16.282-05:002015-04-21T14:59:16.282-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-5363024543225051862015-04-20T21:11:59.312-05:002015-04-20T21:11:59.312-05:00Tim,
I used the same references for the KPP I iden...Tim,<br />I used the same references for the KPP I identified in 'part 2' of the acceleration series:<br />"These times were asserted in an oft-referenced Air Command and Staff College paper authored in 2008 by a then-Lt Commander Geoffrey P. Bowman (USN). These numbers have been repeated in the popular aviation press (example) and Australian Air Force Air Vice Marshall Osley came close to ‘anecdotally’ confirming the F-35A KPP as asserted in the ‘Bowman Paper’ in testimony before an Australian Parliamentary Committee in 2012. The aircraft gross weights and fuel loads for the KPPs have not been revealed, though the Bowman Paper observes they are for internal-only weapons load configurations."<br />These are the most 'authoritative' references available. I'm always on the lookout for better data. SMSgt Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-15171611293285287792015-04-20T21:05:23.571-05:002015-04-20T21:05:23.571-05:00Nuke,
Re: F-18 comparisons. I've not seen as ...Nuke, <br />Re: F-18 comparisons. I've not seen as good a source for F-18 data to use otherwise I'd have include it as an aside. It would have been an 'aside' because we really don't have a lot of good references for the F-35C model-- which would be a more relevant analysis. Ideally, I would like to get 'opposition' data in hand for the MOST relevant analysis ;-). SMSgt Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-32060184730110887972015-04-18T20:03:05.723-05:002015-04-18T20:03:05.723-05:00SMSgt Mac,
I was hoping to see a reference for th...SMSgt Mac,<br /><br />I was hoping to see a reference for the F-35A's transonic KPP being tied to a mission profile of two 2K JDAMs and two AMRAAMs, as your entire analysis hinges on the dramatic performance improvement due to shedding off 4K lbs of weight via an air-to-air loaded-out. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-85978894056139432962015-04-18T18:08:06.706-05:002015-04-18T18:08:06.706-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-39959047949555664402015-04-17T15:45:40.997-05:002015-04-17T15:45:40.997-05:00SMSgt Mac anyway we might see a comparison to the ...SMSgt Mac anyway we might see a comparison to the F/A-18? Overall I'm thinking that the F/A-18 will be the closet approximation to the F-35's performance.<br /><br />As far as I know the best F/A-18 variant from an agility perspective remains the late lot F/A-18C which had the F404-GE-402 EPE engines.NukeFromOrbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17216912168434362829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-41292357908876294562015-04-16T21:47:58.404-05:002015-04-16T21:47:58.404-05:00Real quick, what of the referenc for the KPP?Real quick, what of the referenc for the KPP?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-15925685062288064302015-04-16T20:57:47.411-05:002015-04-16T20:57:47.411-05:00Hi Tim,
CFT weight could go either way, and given ...Hi Tim,<br />CFT weight could go either way, and given the unknowns between how the Block 50 and 60 weights are 'baseline'calculated we don't really need to know. On the one hand I'm using the HAF aircraft weights for Block 50 that includes pilot, trapped fuel, lubrication, two launchers and 2 AIM-9s (which I later substituted with AMRAAMs). This stuff adds up to about 500 pounds over the usual empty weight figure provided for the Block 50 (see AF Fact Sheet). On the other hand we just have a marketing 'weight' total for the Block 60 that may or may not include all of the above, and may have added trapped fuel to boot. This is the kind of uncertainty driving why I estimated 'ranges' as outputs instead of 'points. The Block 60 might be 400-500 lbs lighter, but it still has some unknown drag factor from the sensor suite missing and I gave it the same acceleration benefit from thust/weigh ratio as a lighter airplane. I call it a 'wash' for our back of the envelope look-see.SMSgt Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08126690689798203866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21894908.post-30049061073445387842015-04-16T19:32:16.784-05:002015-04-16T19:32:16.784-05:00SMSgt Mac,
Thanks for the great analysis! Do you...SMSgt Mac,<br /><br />Thanks for the great analysis! Do you have a reference though for the F-35A Transonic KPP being tied to a mission profile of internal cary of two 2K lb. JDAMS and two AMRAAMs? Also, I thought the CFTs were included in the Block 60's 22,000 lb. weight. Is this wrong? Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.com